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slay13
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re: DoG Loot System Info

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Hello all, here is the loot system that we will be using for now. It’s pretty simple, and I feel address’ the main concerns with looting for both regular and casual raiders. This will address issues with guys comin in one time, and getting a drop that regular raiders have been wanting for months and months. It also is set up so that everyone looses eventually, which is needed in any system that you want “new” guys to feel like there is a chance to become regular raid members.


~DoG Suicide Kings Loot System~

Description: This is a very simple system, its modified slightly from the loot system commonly known as “Suicide Kings” to address specific needs that I feel we have that the regular suicide system does not address well.

There will be a list of everyone that raids in the guild. From 1 down to whatever depending on how many guys are currently raiding actively. When a drop is disputed or there are multiple people that want to roll on it, the people involved will have the option to use their “Veto” and take the drop. The person that gets the drop, will then move down to the bottom of the list (hence suicide), which then moves everyone up a spot and they have to wait their turn again to be able to veto.

Here are two example drops and how they would be handled with this system…

~Example Usage:~

Example 1 (Disputed Roll):
We just downed high king maulgar. He has dropped a warrior/druid/priest token.

Yongary, Frithoris, and Verlo would like to roll on this drop.

First, the raid leader asks if anyone would like to “Veto” for this item. The people wanting to roll must then WHISPER the raid leader “Veto” if they would like to do this.

Yongary says he would not like to veto, but Frith and Verlo tell the leader that they DO want to veto.

First, the raid leader checks the stack, and sees if both of the people wanting to roll are past the required threshold up the ladder to be able to use their veto (currently top 10, may be adjusted later), and sees that they both indeed are above the cutoff to both be able to use their veto’s.

Frith is #4 on the stack, and Verlo is #9. Frith gets the drop, and moves down to the BOTTOM of the stack, everyone above him moves up a place (ie: verlo becomes #8 and so forth.)


Example 2 (Non-Disputed Roll):

This is the same scenario as above, except this time Yongary/Frith/Verlo do not wish to use a “Veto” for the item and drop down the list (once again, this is silent up until this point), but still all want the item regardless. In this case, all 3 simply will /roll, and the winner will receive the item and, if it was for their primary spec, they will move down the stack 3 places.


Right now i'm still playing around with the "loot tax" amount, i'm trying 3 to see how it is currently before modifying it more. You are taxed 3 spots for a drop that you won that you did not veto for if it is for your primary spec. If it is for your offspec, there is no tax involved as long as no one needed it for their primary.

~Moving Up/Down in the stack:~

• If you have signed up on the website for a particular posted raid, and do not show up, you will fall 5 spots in the stack.

• If you signed up and showed up late, you will fall 2 spots.

• If you win a roll by using your “Veto” powers and get a drop, you will go to the bottom of the stack.

• If you show up for a raid, but did not sign up for it on the website, you will not be penalized for being “late” (as you didn’t sign up), however, you will not move up in the stack any positions when guys suicide to the bottom. (IE: Mattymoo is #14, and joins the raid 90 minutes in, as guys suicide, they go to the bottom, guys who are below him move up a spot, guys in the 15 spot move up to 13 ect PAST him. This is to prevent guys from coming in super casually all the time in an attempt to NOT be late, get drops, go up ranks in the stack. If you want to use this system, you must be a part of it.

• If you are on the stack, but haven’t made a raid in over 2 weeks, then you will drop 1 spot each raid after that you are not a part of. This is to prevent people from getting to the top of the stack, taking long periods of time off (sometimes to pass having to work on new content) and then jumping right back in. I feel 2 weeks is a proper amount of time, if it needs to be longer or shorter this will be changed.

• Initial stack positioning. I’ve recorded attendance for the raids over the past week, they will be posted regularly on the forums as well as the drops and who got what from now on from any 25 man. We raided 3 nights last week, those that raided all 3 will be randomly rolled on first to decide who is at the top down to the bottom, those that made 2 nights will be rolled on 2nd to see who goes on the bottom after that, and those that just made 1 night will be rolled on 3rd.



Threshold: The threshold is the amount of places from the top of the stack that a person must be in order to use their Veto at all. This is to prevent guys that are very low on the stack..to use a veto on another guy in the stack that is still way down at the bottom..that would be pretty cheesy.

Currently, the threshold will be decided by taking the #of guys in the stack, and the top 1/2 can veto, the lower 1/2 can't.

Drop Tax: Currently theres a drop tax of 3 on any item that is won for your MAIN SET that you did not Veto for. The intent of this is to keep the list circulating a bit, guys that win many many items for their main set shouldnt still be on top of the veto stack.

There is no drop tax for offset items, but you still can't roll against guys for their mainset unless they bow out first.


---------
PuG's ect.

Loot sequence is as follows:
- Loot master links an item
- raid members that would like the item for primary spec type '1' in raid chat
- raid members wishing to utilize their veto whisper the loot master. The loot master will signify a time limit, 10-15 seconds, and make a 'last call'.
- If a pug is involved at this point, a roll takes place. If the pug wins the roll, they win the item
- If a pug is not involved, or loses the roll, then any vetos that have been whispered to the loot master will take place. If there are none, the roll is used to determine the winner.

This allows for pugs to still win loot and want to come, as well as keep our loot system intact. Loot rules for veto list movement will still apply for all applicable item drops.


Last edited by slay13 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total


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re: PROPOSAL FOR PUG SITUATIONS

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Loot sequence is as follows:
- Loot master links an item
- raid members that would like the item for primary spec type '1' in raid chat
- raid members wishing to utilize their veto whisper the loot master. The loot master will signify a time limit, 10-15 seconds, and make a 'last call'.
- If a pug is involved at this point, a roll takes place. If the pug wins the roll, they win the item
- If a pug is not involved, or loses the roll, then any vetos that have been whispered to the loot master will take place. If there are none, the roll is used to determine the winner.

This allows for pugs to still win loot and want to come, as well as keep our loot system intact. Loot rules for veto list movement will still apply for all applicable item drops.
slay13
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re: DoG Loot System Info

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I don't have a problem with that Ug, it sounds like a good/simple solution.

I'm sorry if guy's felt slighted at all by last nights loot distribution, it wasn't my intention but its apparent that some guys feel thats the case so i'm sorry for that fact either way.

----------------------------
-offsets-

its stated in the rules that you can only get offset gear if all guys of that mainspec pass on it. If you guys think thats not fair, then i'm open to change it, but thats the rules and more or less thats how we've always played it. If you want to /need on stuff, then spec that spec, otherwise its offset.

If your current offset gear is good enough to run the content that we're running in our "progression content", then run lower content to get gear to catch up to the progression content for that spec. You will get offset drops eventually through progression for your offspec, just not before guys' mains, have a little patience.

-----------------------------

PuG's-

I'd rather not take PuGs, but in lieu of guys not showing up or lacking a few specific class', its required to raid some nights. I apologize for not having a plan laid out for this, I think Ug's proposition above sounds fair.

I'm sorry if guys feel miffed by not winning drops last night, we didnt have a plan in place when we went in, nor did anyone offer one up before loot was sorted, including myself.

We've used straight /rolls in the past in this situation, so thats what i went with. It may not make everyone happy but honestly it gives everyone involved an equal chance at the drop and doesnt favor any one individual.

I don't have a problem changing the loot system or modifying it, but it needs to be decided before loot is out on the table. Otherwise any changes made are always going to be percieved to favor the individual that it helps at that given moment, and thats not fair for anybody in the long run.

In the future we can give Ug's idea a try, unless someone provides a better alternative.


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~~Mattymoo~~
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re: DoG Loot System Info

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Just throwing this out there to see what everyone else thinks of the impact... what would happen if we added a "drop tax" to the off set items?

We seem to get a lot of the same loot over and over and over from our bosses... to the point where a person near the top of the list could get an off-set item from one boss, then another off-set item from the next boss that night, then still be high enough on the list to veto for a new drop on the last boss we down that same night. I know its a little bit of a stretch, but its still possible...

How would a "One drop per night" rule affect our loot system? Would it cause too many people to just skip out after they get their drop? Would it distribute loot to more members of the raid? Would it make people pass on off-set loot to the point of sharding something?

Again, I'm asking because I dont have any real experience with loot systems so I am sure I dont see it from all the angles and I would love to learn a little more about the intricacies of guild management :-)

****Edited to add the following comment****

I love the way Ug's idea works about still using our system with PUGs involved. It keeps the loot system intact and still allows us to have something to offer a PUG that essentially facilitates us being able to raid that night. (Much harder to get a PUG if you cant offer them a chance at any loot)

*End of Edit*
Ugdhar
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re: OFFSET AND DROP CHOICE

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I think offsets should be for when no one needs them only, with our current drop-free tax.

HOWEVER, her is an example of an exception:
The other night, while the raid was forming, BEFORE WE ACTUALLY STARTED, Zipgun said he was coming as resto, since we needed healers more than DPS. He said he would come as resto, but asked if he could pass resto drops for enh. drops, since that's his typical main spec. That sounded fair to me, since he proposed it before we started seeing drops, and before we were actually killing shit. It seemed acceptable to me, because 1) I've seen him enh much more than I've seen him resto; 2) Without seeing what's dropping yet, he said he'd pass on resto gear and roll on enh gear, which of course there was a chance of the opposite happening.

Just my 2 pesos.
slay13
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re: DoG Loot System Info

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After running last nights raids, I feel optimistic about the loot system finally, i'd like to know as we continue with it what you guys think of it or what we can change to make it run more smoothly in the future. Right now there are 2 things good going on and a few things that I am still questioning that require maybe some more fine tuning ect.

-------------
Good Things-

*Guys are using their veto's now. This is great and it makes the system work and fairly as long as guys try to use the system and not work against it. I think the drop tax is working on the guys on the top end of the stack as well as its started to force a "use it or lose it" mentality to the veto's, which honestly is its intention so that we keep guys cycling through the list, which is what we want.

*PuGs/Loot system ect, I think after last night using Ug's suggestions with out loot system in conjuntion to us having a few pugs worked really well i feel, and unless anyone has any reasonable reasons not to use it this is what we'll be doing in all future instances at the moment. It allows PuGs a fair chance at loot(the same chance as if they had open rolls in the first place), and if they dont outroll everyone still allows us as a guild to use our loot system that we have in place.

*threshold- I think the threshold set at roughly 1/2 of the stack is working correctly now by giving a wider array of guys chances at veto, and thus keeping the list moving on a nightly basis now.

---------------------------------------

Possible Concerns/changes

*Drop tax- the main thing that I feel may or may not need adjusted now is drop tax's. I'd like to hear your guys' suggestions on how this should be modified if at all. Right now we have drop tax of 3 spots for guys winning main set items if they're above the threshold. I think this is working because its forcing guys to use their veto's, and not just sit perched on top of the list and /roll forever.

Do you guys think this is a good amount or that it should be increased at all?

Also we currently don't have any drop tax for guys below the threshold. Do you think this is a good idea, or should we try out a tax of 1 or 2 spots per main set item rolled on>? I wouldnt have a problem with this, but I think its essential that whatever we decide upon that the guys on TOP of the threshold have a higher tax, otherwise we still have the same situations where guys just /roll on top of the list forever and get many items and still get their veto's.


Thanks for the feedback so far, and if you guys have any idea's/feelings/suggestions then please let me know.


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~~Mattymoo~~
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re: DoG Loot System Info

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I think that if the people who can veto actually do use their veto then the list will circulate well.

If people do not use their veto, then the bottom of the list will get very stale while the top still circulates. If we were to add a drop tax to the people below the veto line, I think it should be close, if not the same as the tax to the top of the list.

If a new raider enters at the bottom of the list and nobody uses their veto, that raider will be forever stuck at the bottom unless the people directly on top of him sign up for a raid and then dont show (therefore being penalized) Having only a drop tax in the top of the stack causes only the top half (and a couple people just below the line) to move.

Again, if people use their veto regularly then this system looks like it fits our guild very well :-) and no changes seem to be necessary. I like having the entire half of the stack able to veto as well! It means that more people can veto which means more movement in the lists.
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re: DoG Loot System Info

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I was reading up on how some other systems work and came across something that might satisfy some people. In the "Suicide Kings" systems (the system I believe ours is based on) only people in the current raid where an item is won advance in the list.

So say for example I am in spot 10 and am not raiding tonight, if someone were to veto on an item in a spot above me I would remain in spot 10 because i was not raiding when the item was won and the person below me would leapfrog into spot 9. This would allow for people who raid more often to advance faster and people who show up once in a blue moon to advance in the list but at a proportionally slower rate


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re: DoG Loot System Info

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This thread is a little dated but it gave me some good insight on how your version of Suicide List came to be.

But I have a few questions

The current loot list says "the top 30 above the loot threshold" but everytime I count it, its onyl 25, why?

And guys below threshold take a loot tax when getting gear as well correct?

Anyways, this seems like a good system and a lot of kinks have been worked out. I was in a Pre-BC guild that used the cookie-cutter rules for a suicide list and it was strange. You typed 1 if you wanted gear, if you were above everyone else who typed 1, you got the gear and you went to the bottom. No rolling. It seems fair at first, since everyone gets a chance to get the gear they want and even new guys could move up in the list pretty quickly and get gear too, but what you had was guys who were high on the list and holding out for Rag every week while things were getting sharded they actually could have used slowing down our progression. I remember some pretty intense guild meetings and it abruptly changing from a drop list to DKP.


But when it comes to loot systems, the most important thing is that everyone can agree on it and no one activily seeks to exploit it. With loot lists everyone has to want to use it properly and take the hit and sink to the bottom, and not try to hold out. Just focus on whether you actually need the gear or not and try not to be concerned with how high or low you are or might become. But you guys probably already got that figured out.
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