Loot System Input Thread

[Biff Rocku]

I have been watching this whole Loot-Sytem change idea for the last couple of weeks and am glad to see a calm post.

So what happens when a piece of loot drops on this system? Say its tier 5. The top person on each list gets to roll for it. If you get a piece of gear you drop to the bottom of the list. If you miss a raid you drop a spot on your list. But if you are there on an alt you do not drop a spot on the list since we needed you on the alt. There is one person that keeps track of all of this. Sorry I don't remember who posted this, but that sounds really good to me. It means people will still have to go so they can keep their spot, but it also means your not going to be waiting MONTHS to get your T5.
The only problem with this system is it only works for tier drops. Because we don't always know what is going to drop off various bosses i think this system would be very inaffective in that sense. I don't really feel this system was meant for anything other than tier drops.

Tel's GP idea.
I really, really like this idea. The fact that it does also have a stroke of luck involved means that people with feel that it's more achievable. I like the idea of GP decay. This does prevent the system from returning back to the Open rolls. I think that if this was coupled with the Tier rolling system above that it would be a very affective way to gear our guildies [b][u]Fairly.

Loot Council!
I think that the combination of the two systems above is nigh perfect, BUT if I were to have to promte one other loot system it would be the Loot Council. I Fully trust our generals/Guild leader especially. I know i haven't been in the guild long, but none of them has lead me astray. I feel that all of the officers (Especially Matty) has the guilds best interests in mind. GO Loot council!

Dkp's
Don't really know much about them, but what i've heard I'm not a huge fan.

I don't remeber who said it, but they mentioned somthing about how the loot priority on this new raid content. I agree with wat he/she said. Sorry would have said more but i G2g

[Grenn]

I understand that some people took my post on the other thread a bit harshly. I probably should have gone in to more detail with everything but I didn't think it was necessary in a thread that was supposed to be about whether we wanted a loot system or not.

I talked about this in Vent earlier today and i figured I'd post it up here for everyone to see.

I'd like very much to see us use this loot council system, but it requires everyone to be a bit more adult about the game than I've seen some of you be. It also requires that EVERYONE us the guild forums, and if they don't then they don't get loot.

First there are the 4 rules I posted on the other thread.

1. Regulars first
2. Mains before alts
3. Tanks>Heals>DPS for Teir Tokens
4. Mains will get offset loot before alts

Allow me to explain these in more detail and with the reasoning behind them. All of these rules require you to understand a couple things. First is that what drops during a raid is the property of the guild not the character that it's awarded to. Second is that the entire guild has a responsibility to uphold these loot rules and agrees to abide by the rulings of the loot council.

1. A regular raider will get loot over someone that's new or that isn't as reliable. This is because the more often a piece of loot that the guild earns is in play the more benefit the guild is earning for what it's invested in a player. It's wise to gear out the people that you KNOW are going to be around and available to raid before you give gear to people that only show up sometimes.

2. Mains should get raid spots and loot before alts. Everyone has alts, and everyone wants their alts to be as geared as possible. This is understandable. But everyone needs to also understand that alts should be just that, an alternative character for you to play when your main isn't needed or you're bored. Your main needs to be your first priority, and your fellow guildmates' mains need to be of a higher priority to you than the character you only play 'sometimes'. A character that gets 30 hours of playtime a week should always get loot before a character that only get 10 or 15 hours of play. This goes back to the reason for rule one, the more often a piece of loot the guild earns is in play the more benefit the guild is earning for it's investment in your character.

3. Token priority is a heated subject, and one that requires careful discussion and planning. It's a proven fact that gearing your top 3 tanks out first is the most simple thing any guild can do in order to keep progression going. If your tank can't take the hits then it doesn't matter how much healing or dps you have with you, your tank will die before they're useful. Currently our top 3 tanks are extremely well geared for the content we've been doing, but the farther we push in content the harder our tanks will be getting hit. Making sure they can take the hits should be the guild's first concern. Healers have the next priority since once a tank can take the hits we need someone to be able to keep him standing for the length of the battle. If your healers can't heal faster than the damage your tanks are taking then it doesn't really matter how much dps you have since it's unlikely that your healers' mana will last long enough for you to dps the target down. DPS gets the final priority since once you can reliably defeat an opponent then you can start trying to kill the enemy faster. Be able to kill the enemy before you worry about how quickly you can do it, and this is a tried and true method for making that happen.

4. Mains should get offset loot before alts. This is the rule that most people got the most upset over, and unless you take a few moments to understand the perspective the rule is written from and that the rule is not an absolute that must be adhered to then you're completely justified. This rule can be a hard one to implement, but it goes back to the reason for rule one. Putting loot where it will do the most good for the guild, ie putting the loot where it will get the most playtime. This rule can't be applied fairly to every class in the game, but it must be considered when the loot council makes it's decisions about drops. Some classes require the player to maintain 2 sets of gear for their chacters, one for groups and raiding, and one for solo play and farming. Tanks and Healers especially follow this rule since the gear they use to tank or heal in an instance isn't always conducive to play outside of instances. If you've ever tried to farm in tanking gear or in full healing gear then you probably understand how difficult and time consuming it is compared to how quickly a dps class can plow through mobs. The simple swapping of gear can make this difference much less without the need for a costly respec. When applying this rule the loot council needs to make a decision about whether the loot will see more action and do the guild the most good by giving it to a main that can use it for such an offset or by giving it to someone's alt. This is most important for tanks since you're often required to bring 3 or more tanks to a raid to clear trash or for specific fights and the rest of the time they may as well be an empty raid slot for the amount of dps they bring to the table. If you can help your tanks maintain a decent dps set while not impacting the gear progression of the regular dps characters in the guild, then your ensuring that your raids are going to be putting out the most dps possible at all times. It also makes it easier for your tanks and healers to do the farming they need to do in order to maintain supplies of consumables for raids.

Now that the rules of the loot council have been explained the method in which the council meets and decides needs to be as well.

A well run loot council is one that knows well ahead of time who has priority for loot. This means making the decisions about loot before the items drops, often times before the raid is even assembled. The best system for this is to have everyone in the guild post a list of items they desire for their character on the forums and have the loot council compile a list of who wants each item and whether they want it for their main set of gear or for an offset. This process is long and involved, but once the list is created the distribution of loot is a quick and painless process. The loot master looks at the loot that dropped and simply consults the list to see who it goes to, no rolling or discussion is required, or tolerated for that matter. Loot will go to the person on the top of the list for that item, no questions asked or entertained. If you forgot to ad your name to the list for an item then you'd better do it, hope the council puts you at the top of the list, and hope it drops again soon because you're not going to get it this time. The loot lists will be posted for all to see on the forums, so you know where you stand and can question your placement in a rational manner with less time constraints than a raid setting will allow, but remember that the rulings of the loot council are final and repeatedly complaining about your placement could result in penalties.

An obvious flaw in this is that the same person could be at the top of the list for a number of items that drop in one instance, or even off the same boss. This is why each player will be limited to 1 piece of loot per instance unless the loot will be DE'd if not taken. A void crystal is never as much use to the guild as the item will be, so anytime the guild can avoid disenchanting an item it should. This ads an element of risk to the system that the loot council will have no control over. If you pass on an item in the hopes that another item will drop off an upcoming boss and the item doesn't drop you may be holding your breath for nothing. This will also ensure that players show up for raids since no one can ever know what's going to drop, and whether or not the person above them on the loot list will pass on the item or not.

Players found to avoid raiding when there's someone above them on the loot list and players that leave the raid after being awarded their 1 piece of loot for that instance must be penalized. Usually by having their loot rights revoked until after they attend 1 full night of raiding or by having their raiding rights revoked until they contribute heavily to the guild bank (typically a sum of 500g or more, being a prick is rightfully costly).

This loot system requires the guild as a whole to be dedicated to progressing as a whole, and not worrying about your own character above all others. You have to be part of the group and work for the group's advancement or you will be excluded from the group and the group will advance without you.

EDIT:
Grenn's Wall of Text Crits your for 25000 arcane damage
You die

[Isasuke]

Ok the only problem is that sometimes we have to take alts instead of that persons main. Two examples of that are Redneckloger and Ug who both have to end up going on their priest normally. It would be hard to tell them that there not allowed to roll on there priest cause there alts. Or that there not to roll on there hunters because we are making the priests ther raid mains. either way it jips then by having to go on there alts.

[Grenn]

well, you have to make a decision about who your main is and who your alts are.

Once you make the decision then you have to stick with it, you can't change your mind. If the guild requires you to run on an alt for a raid that simply means the guild needs to recruit another member of that class so you can play your main instead.

We can't keep requiring people to bring alts, it's not fair to their mains to go on alts and miss loot

[The True Telarien]

Alts are BY FAR the most controversial piece of this whole thing!

I am going to have to agree with Grenn that people need to pick a Main and stick with it.

If the guild requires you to run on an alt, the Guild really should be recruiting someone to fill that slot on a Main.

If you want to get gear for your Alt *and who doesnt?* then the loot system should definitely allow for that BUT it should only be allowed for bosses we have on Farm, and points/votes or whatever you spend on your alt should be removed from the points/votes available to your main.

Mains will always be the strongest raid group and should be used for New Content and Guild progression. If the guild is good enough to drop Farmed bosses without your Main there, then you would be welcome to CHOOSE to bring your alt.

I do not think the following would be fair....
*using made up names here*
Jimmy has a main (DPS) and 2 alts (one Tank and one Healer)
We go on a raid and make Jimmy take his Healer for one fight.
-- Healing gear drops that he needs and i'm on my main that could have used it for an off-set. Jimmy wins the roll for it because its that toon's primary spec, or he had more points than the guy who wanted it for an off set or whatever...
The next boss we need another tank so Jimmy is made to take him
-- Tank gear drops that he needs and someone else can use it for an off-set. Jimmy wins the roll for it because its that toon's primary spec, or he had more points than the guy that wants it for an off set blah blah blah...
The rest of the run he brings his DPS and on the final boss we down him for the first time! Major guild accomplishment! A piece drops that he needs and he's the top of the list or has more points on this character too or whatever...
--I'm going to be pissed when he gets it cause he just geared all 3 of his toons in one night!! I know many other people would be pissed!

Thats what I think a good loot system can solve for us. In that scenario, if jimmy was using points that HE personally had, he would never have had enough points to have gotten all that gear, he would have passed on the earlier stuff to save the points for his main, or if he took the gear on his alt, he wouldnt have enough points to get the sweet new loot from the last boss and it would have gone to some other main. If the loot council was allowed to give mains an item for their off-set before someone's alt *that was required to attend* was given the gear, it could have been more evenly distributed. If the guild had recruited full-time mains for those positions that his alts filled, all three pieces of gear would have went towards guild progression!

This isnt ment to be a tirade against alts, i'm just airing my opinions about how i think alts should fit into a loot system. They should not come before a Main. A main with an off-set should get the gear before an Alt. If an alt is *Required* to attend, then let him have a fair chance on the loot, but make him spend points that his main could have used, or make him ineligible to get any more gear on his main after his alt already won something for the night. I like the "One drop per raid" rule and think it would be a good addition to practically any loot system. The obvious exception to the rules is just like Grenn stated before about no matter who gets the gear, gear is always better use to the guild than a void crystal.

[Biff Rocku]

I agree that mains get geared be4 alts. It would be crap for an alt to get a piece of gear over a main. If the guild requires u to bring your alt because they need you I don't see a reason why they couldn't get a piece of gear for their alts main set over a mains off-set. Especially if the alt has to come in place of the main often. Just my opinion. Go loot council or Gp system WOOT!

[Ugdhar]

See all the bullshit and work we have to go through because people cry over losing a piece of gear???????

This whole thing is pretty much retarded at this point if you ask me.

/bow out

[redneckloger]

having a loot system isnt gonna fix shit. people are pissed off right now cuz they arnt getting loot... if we put a loot system em people are still gonna be pissed off that they arnt getting loot and probably just gquit cuz they feel they dont even have a chance now... the only thing that pisses me off and i know it pisses a lot of other people off. laz for one. is the fact that we have never started a raid on time. for me it doesnt mattewr what time we start, either its a good day i can ran raid or its a bad day and no matter what time we start i wont be able to go... LIKE TOMARROW FOR INSTANCE I DONT THINK I WILL MAKE IT TO TK. I APOLOGIZE BUT SOMETIMES I GOT SHIT TO DO. but really if we say we are gonna start at 10pm... we need to start at 10:10 at the latest people need to be on early.. i know sometimes someone might forget, last week i was like 12 minutes late but then we sat there for at least another hour bullshittin in vent not getting anything done.

if we do have to get a loot system i kinda like korkee's idea it still gives just about everyone a chance but for the people that are there all the time get a little better chance. but i think some changes to it need to be made for one i dont think za should really count.. we never really plan out when we are gonna do it so its not fair for people to get dkp for being lucky enough to be on when we decide to go.
two i think there should be a cap on say +150. that way some people dontend up getting 5000dkp and never loose a roll.

but really people will be pissed off no matter what we do. we cant make everyone happy

[Vituperate]

Here's how I see it. People want their mains to get gear. So in order to do this time has to be put in. A list or Loot council can become very tilted and whether or not its assumed favorites can be player regardless. The reasons I feel dkp are fair.
1) Its your points for your time that YOU put forth in order to help the guild.
2) The points are shared between your characters and in my opinion the guy whos there more should be the one winning the loot because he is more of an asset to us.
3) This stops people from casually signing on to raid and makes them come for entire raids so that they can benefit from the full dkp. (Lets face it people show up for Gruul then bail what kind of bull is that?)
4) Without some sort of system many people will become pissed off and if any favorites are played by a so called "List" or "Loot Council" you may cross someone who is more deserving and unless everyone is going to have a mark for every raid accounted for that they have shown up to then I don't see how this is fair.
5) With dkp is stops the casual raiders from taking gear from those who are there all the time. If Joe raids once a week and John raids twice a week then John should have no problem out dkping Joe for a peice of gear that he would be more deserving of due to his amount of aquired raiding.
6) Alts and Mains share dkp per the account holder therefore if Salamand raids 2 raids and Hashhish raids another then I the holder of the account will gain dkp for both characters' attendance to the raid.
7) Mains are a priority but not always achievable, I came over here with a very well geared Warlock/Shaman these were both my mains due to the changes in the requirements of fights in SSC/TK I could not bring the same one to every raid. There is no point to have 8 healers on Hydross so having the ability to switch between the two characters is vital and helpful. I know many people in the guild share this same aspect.
8) 1/2 dkp will stop monopolies and people from hoarding up a bunch of dkp therefore making it so that you do not have to worry about one person with 10 million dkp. (exaggeration of course)
9) Overall the system is meant to cause fairness due to attendance and effort put forward while raiding.

[Rakusimoo- A.K.A. TRAVIS]

I have to say i agree with HYD alot! I see some problems that will occur. While doing the math of some of these DKP systems i can see that someone sitting on top can theoritically stay on top of others regardless of their rolls. Take for example a raider that because of work or school or whatever can only make a sunday raid, they only can earn a certain amount of points a week. Where as a hardcore raider who makes all the raids can earn all the points for each raid, roll on 1 item a night and still be higher than the other guys that can raid 1 night a week. Therefore concluding that no matter what if he shows up, when he can, he cant earn enough points to get gear. And what incentive does that give him to show up regularly?

[The True Telarien]

Simply adding a DKP cap or some kind of point decay system takes care of that problem. If your only concern is people stockpiling points, thats pretty easy to deal with.

Only problem though... if someone raids that much.. dont you think they deserve to get the gear? And if they raid that much, they will get all the gear pretty quick and then they are out of the rolls for it. Regular raider gets the gear right away, casual raider gets it a little slower but still gets it.

*Edited to point out that I am a casual raider, so I am defending the hardcore raiders simply because I feel that if they raid more, they should get the loot faster than me as thats what is fair and benefits the guild more*

[Dragonsong]

The True Telarien wrote:

Simply adding a DKP cap or some kind of point decay system takes care of that problem. If your only concern is people stockpiling points, thats pretty easy to deal with. Only problem though... if someone raids that much.. dont you think they deserve to get the gear? And if they raid that much, they will get all the gear pretty quick and then they are out of the rolls for it. Regular raider gets the gear right away, casual raider gets it a little slower but still gets it. *Edited to point out that I am a casual raider, so I am defending the hardcore raiders simply because I feel that if they raid more, they should get the loot faster than me as thats what is fair and benefits the guild more*

I see your point and am much like you a part time raider (to be even less so till the end of the semester near the beginning of May). That is why a loot council is still to me the most viable option. Granted, it may not have a hard number attached to it the way a DKP system does but it still allows for an accounting of attendance at raids and can take into account the need for a player to bring an alt to certain raids/ bosses. I realize that Alts, as many have said, are the real contentious issue here, and that no system even DKP will satisfy the concerns of alts over mains.

The issue seems to be are we trying to be a "hardcore" raiding guild or more casual?
Casual means we might not be doing big end game stuff or at least not without going round about by badge/ arena grinding post 2.4.
"Hardcore" raiding means large time investments both in almost nightly raiding and grinding pot/ food/ other consumables needed for said raids.

This decision would seem to make a huge impact on what sort of loot distribution system we implement. And i am aware that for some either decision will be a potentially alienating as some casual players will have to wait for a long while for instance based upgrades (pvp, crafted, badge gear is always an option). And some of the more consistent, or "hardcore", players will not be satisfied with a guild that only runs a few instances two or three nights a week. I fully understand that this might need to become a separate topic but the question seems to be one that needs to be addressed before we can really come to a consensus on what kind of loot system works best for us.

[Crazy.Insane]

The way I see things, when we switch to some sort of loot system, we need to come up with something that suits our guild best as a whole. The following are some thoughts I have after reading what everyone else had to say. Nothing that is said here is directed toward anyone and is simply what I would like to see from everyone.

These are the main areas I think should be taken into consideration in a loot system, when awarding points or however we choose to do it.

Attendance is pretty important. I think the most important thing is showing up when expected. I don’t think it should be a problem if you state what days/nights are not good for you and most likely cannot raid. The thing is we still have people not showing up when we need them. People are forced to go on characters other than their mains so we can get a solid raid makeup (we need one or two more consistent healers). It’s understandable that everyone has things they need to do before they can play wow. Maybe we should get some phone numbers of other people in the guild. Call or send a text if something comes up and you can’t make it when you know we are waiting for you OR if you have the time, just log in and say something in guild chat. We have plenty of people in the guild now so coming up with 25 people shouldn’t be very difficult. Life happens and if you need to do something in RL, just tell someone; especially on raid nights. All in all, showing up to raid ON TIME and ready to roll helps out more than anything (the more we kill the more loots we all get). If you know you are going to be late, tell someone. It’s not a big deal most of the time as long as we don’t have too many gaps. (Good or bad, positive or negative, when you affect a situation, you have an effect on it. I has proper word usage ).

Preparation: I think this one is easy and will save a lot of time. I rarely log out without being ready to roll at any given point in time. Every time before I log out, I go up to the repair guy in shat, sell any crap in my bags, REPAIR, go down and bank what needs be, then log. It’s just a habit (tell me I’m not one of few people that do this). Sure, sometimes when I need to go do something and I just log out when I need to. But 99% of the time I am ready to raid or do whatever, whenever. I also make sure I stay stocked up on pots/elixirs/food at all times. I really don’t find it to be very difficult. I never take consumables out of my bags and I rarely seem to be out of bag space. Another thing we should all be doing is reading up on the fights. We spend a lot of time going over the fights just prior to doing them. This will happen as many fights we are doing now are new to the guild, but read up on them and make sure you know what your specific role will be. Another thing people mentioned in other posts is having proper addons for raids. Why not make things easier?

A good attitude is always helpful especially the times when we are doing something new. If and when it falls on one person (or class) not doing what they are supposed to do which in turn wipes the raid, it’s important to remember that we are doing new things and encouragement should be shown and not bitching someone out (constructive criticism is much better than “you suck”). We won’t always get the same 25 people that are used to doing the fights. We will at some point have someone doing something they are not used to. You have to understand that some things are not easy and take some practice. However, if it is something that continuously leads to a wipe, we should simply get another person to perform that task. We need to put people in positions that suit them best, that suit the raid best. Regardless if you like to do one certain thing, if the raid is depending on it AND you are more than capable, suck it up so we can get it done. The less time we spend arguing about stupid shite means more time we can spend killing stuff and learning new content.

As mentioned in many other posts, gearing yourself outside raids is necessary for us to progress. I think this topic has been covered so I won’t say much other than: Do it! I guess this would fall on being prepared.

Commitment: In addition to showing up on time, people should not be leaving early or going AFK for long periods of time. I think 4 hours is a good amount of time we all should be able to set aside if we want to raid effectively (how many times have you been in Kara for 6 hours+?). I think raid invites should start going out at 9:30 pm (for a 10 pm raid) and everyone should be expected to be in the raid 15 minutes before we start. I don’t think people should start getting ready for the raid 5 minutes before the raid is supposed to start. I would like to be killing things at 10 o’clock and not summoning people at 10:15, 10:30+. If we actually started at 10 pm server and went for a solid 4 hours, we would get much more accomplished. We can take a short break after we kill a boss. Some nights we don’t start until 11 pm and that creates a problem.
We need to make the most of our raid nights as there is way too much to do in such little time. As to leaving early… I know people work. I work in the morning as well. Yes it sucks when someone that we absolutely need for the raid has to leave, but honestly, the raid is counting on you and leaving early for anything other than an emergency is pretty weak. Being too tired to raid means you don’t care enough to raid and shouldn’t be raiding on a night you think you may have to leave early. Whatever the case, we all need to be attentive so we can possibly get done early rather than later. Going AFK during a raid only makes things harder for everyone else. If you must go AFK during a raid, there is no reason why you can’t say something before you do. Tell the raid leader!

The last thing I would like to cover is the time people put in on new content. The willingness of people to spend a bunch of time on a boss knowing that there is a good chance we will wipe (especially if we haven’t done the fight much if at all). So read up on the fight, watch videos, and ask questions if you don’t get something. I think it says a lot for the people that died 30 times in the past week on Al’ar (and soon to be Kael). I’ll die 1000 times more and would sacrifice getting loot if I could trade it for a new boss kill.

The most difficult thing I see is figuring out how to weigh everything in order to determine who can roll on loot. I think attendance, preparation, commitment and attitude are all important factors. As far as the math goes, it has to be clear and concise. There must be a consistent method in keeping track of points or however we want to do it. You either are on time or you’re not. If you are late, you either told someone or you didn’t. You are either prepared or you’re not. You are either positive and helpful or you’re not. However we decide to keep track of points, there should be no grey area. A stringent policy is necessary. In the end, you either get the points and you know why, or you don’t get the points or get a point reduction in which case you will be told why. Also, I think it would be a good idea to create a raiding policy that will list all the rules for everyone that wants to raid. We may also want to have a raid sign up on the site so we can get a better feel for possible additional raid nights as well as comparing who shows up to who signs up.

That’s all I can think of atm. Let me know your thoughts.

[MerexTheMarvelous]

For 25 mans I suggest DKP. However the actual points are structured is up to the officers and gm.

For 10 mans (ZA and Kara), it should simply be whoever needs the upgrade does /roll, and they get it. If no one needs it, the loot is sharded and put in the guild bank. DKP for 10 mans is pretty pointless and not needed. DKP is needed to handle raids with a large amount of people and reward those who make an effort to attend. Kara and ZA are things that can be done whenever cause 10 people are really easy to get together, to do DKP with 10 is really just silly.

[MerexTheMarvelous]

For 25 mans I suggest DKP. However the actual points are structured is up to the officers and gm.

The structure that we used in Team Ice on Illidan was as such:

5 points for being on time (if you're more than 5 minutes late you do not get these points)

5 points at the halfway point in the raid (6 hour raid, 5 points after 3 hours.)

10 points per boss kill

15 points at the end of the raid to those that stayed from the beginning.

For 10 mans (ZA and Kara), it should simply be whoever needs the upgrade does /roll, and they get it. If no one needs it, the loot is sharded and put in the guild bank. DKP for 10 mans is pretty pointless and not needed. DKP is needed to handle raids with a large amount of people and reward those who make an effort to attend. Kara and ZA are things that can be done whenever cause 10 people are really easy to get together, to do DKP with 10 is really just silly.