Loot System Input Thread

[slay13]

Hello all,

Judging by the overall concensus of the guild, as well as the overall tone of the forums over the past month, we are going to be going to a loot system other than Primary Spec Random Rolls Only as we have used thus far..heres how its going to go....

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I don't generally pull rank on a lot of things, i usually let guys "decide" amongst themselves, or put things to a vote, but i'm not going to this time. This one is going to be my call.

This is something that has the capacity to shatter a guild in half or destroy it outright if mishandled, and by reading some peoples posts, and by listening to their input over the past few weeks, I feel that most people don't have a proper understanding of this, or what potentially it can do, both positive or negatively to a guild.

Thats not to say that I don't want to hear what you guys think, just that I think this is the type of decision that most people lack the insight into the situation, as well as the dramas that can result of said decisions as well as I do in regards to our guild. With this in mind....
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~The Rules of This Thread~

Post one or 2 proposed loot systems only, or links to systems that you would use if it was your decision. Also i want detailed explanations as to WHY you think this system should be used, and a description of how this system should be run EXACTLY how you would run it.

If you just post "DKP" or "LOOT council" I'm going to disregard your post, as thats just not enough at this point for me to believe that the poster has any valid input into the decision...i'm sorry but I just need more than that.

I'm not really looking for WHAT you guys want here, as much as WHY you want certain systems, and WHY not other ones. Please try to point out benefits of said system over other ones, as well as potential drawbacks as well. Please try to be as in depth as possible, as I will be taking all systems into account here when coming to a decision, I will also try to talk with each of you further about this, but for right now this is what I need.

Thanks all, and I look forward to hearing your ideas and comments.

[slay13]

Reserved for meh!!

[Korkee]

POINT, COUNTERPOINT! KAY GO!

[Vituperate]

DKP will be earned on an aquired basis due to attendence, attempts, and downings.


---Loot Points as Follows---

-Gains
3 Points on Boss Attempt (Maximum 3 unless not on farm status)
6 Points On downing of Farm Status Boss
12 Points on the downing of a Boss until farm status is achieved
6 Points for arriving on time
1/2 of total aquired dkp while on standby for what you were in standby during
When asked to switch with a player and then remains on standby earns full dkp while there

-Loses
Going AFK when not called for 3 Point deduction

Leaving Raid early without letting leader know ahead of time 6 point deduction.

Not showing up when signed up without letting leader know 6 point deduction.

---Bidding---
Bidding will be an open bid in the raid chat and the bidder who has the highest amount of TOTAL DKP will be awarded the item and their total dkp will be spliced in 1/2. This is known as a HALF-SUM DKP system. This ensures no monopolys on items and still allows for the dedicated players to hold some priority on the gear.


---Items Open to Bids---
-Tier Pieces
-Weapons
-Armor
-Trinkets
-Rings
-Offhands
-Quest items


Additional Rules
-Alts and mains will share DKP values as to the player is raiding on both characters.
-Vortexes will be rolled on and the winner will have a 25 Dkp deduction for this item.

[Ugdhar]

Potentially easier than a DKP (would people REALLY keep up with adding the points and stuff?)

http://www.wowwiki.com/Suicide_Kings

Seems fairly simple, and could be tailored to take into account attendance etc.

*** also, off-spec rolls should just be open rolls for anyone that wants to off-spec an item, if no one needs it for primary spec. This shouldn't count on 'the list' or DKP or whatever.

*** some details for those who don't click the link ***
This is the system Laz used to use when he was raiding MC (or something like it). Everyone's on a list, and when a drop drops, for ppl who have main spec for the item, they say they want it. Whoever's highest on the list gets it, then moves to the bottom of the list. Simple as that, no keeping track of points for everyone, just a name on a list. This isn't perfect, and things that I haven't thought of that might need to be taken into consideration are punctuality, preparedness, and making shit take longer than it needs to ("Sorry guys, gotta go afk for 20 minutes to make a sandwich and call my girlfriend and yadda yadda". . .bathroom breaks are acceptible of course ). Maybe bumping someone down a notch if they're >5 mins late, aren't repaired, etc. (dmg taken during a 5 hour, 1-boss downing wouldn't count as not being repaired).

I hate it just as much as anyone else when I lose shit to someone else, especially someone not as active as me, but it doesn't really bother me that bad unless it's someone that's gonna jump ship, that's about the only thing that REALLY pisses me off. I DO think ppl are QQing a bit more than they need to, and man up a bit about being patient for their drops, just like the rest of us. That's why I haven't been as active in the whole loot system discussion, because not unlike hyde, I don't think things are as bad as people think they are. It's called patience, a thing we grown-ups exercise on a regular basis. We're a killer group of players, and when we want shit dead, it pretty much dies sooner or later, as many times as we wish. We ALL will have EVERYTHING eventually.

Just wait until your precious loot council rules against you and hands your T5 or something to someone else. . .you'll be fuckin screaming for open rolls, I promise it.

So yeah, I mean whatever the majority agrees on, and is as fair as can be, idc. :D

*** end of edit ***

Ultimately down with whatever the majority are ok with, and seems reasonably fair (there's always gonna be someone bitching )

[Korkee]

ZA
-----------------------
+5 DKP For attendance.
+5 DKP For a Boss Kill.
+10 DKP For a full clear

25 Man
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+10 DKP For attendance
+15 DKP For aboss kill.
+25 DKP For a full clear

Gear costs
-----------------------
-10 DKP For an Epic
-15 DKP For a Tier 5+
-20 DKP For a Libram/Totem/Idol/Thrown
-25 DKP For a weapon

Your DKP is a modifier to your roll for a piece of gear that more
than one person wants.

Example: Dingus wants a weapon and has 30 DKP
Wingus also want the same weapon and has -10 DKP

Since both people want the piece of t5+ gear they roll for it and the
DKP modifies their roll.

Dingus rolls an 11 (add 30 DKP) making his roll a 41.
Wingus rolls a 40 (minus 10 DKP) making his roll a 30.

Dingus wins the loot and has spent 15 DKP for a t5+ piece of gear
making his new total DKP 15 plus the boss kill.

Wingus gets no loot this time but has received the boss kill DKP
moving himself up to a higher possible roll next time.

Pros & Cons

Pro: There is still a random element which makes it nearly always possible
for people to get loot and makes them want to come.
Pro: More even distribution of loot.
Pro: You get credit for the things you do even if you didn't get any loot.
Pro: More control for the guild master such as docking DKP for being stupid
or making people wait on you.

Cons: If you are unable to get online at a certain scheduled time
you fall behind in roll bonuses making it harder to get loot.
Cons: Some people may need loot now more than others and go so far into debt
that they decide it's time to jump ship with their loots and start over elsewhere.
Cons: This takes math skills, which alot of us don't have... me for example.
Cons: Someone has to be in charge and it puts more pressure on them to keep track
of DKP scores.

[Darkbahamut]

I personally am a fan of the loot council. I mean no offense matty but sometimes you arent always right :P but you are most of the time . I would be very willing to put my faith in our guild generals b/c i feel that they are reasonal people and they would know what is best for the guild. How we pick the council, i would suggest we make an election of some kind for the council outside of raid either on the forum or in the game. Once votes are in for we can put people in ranks from how many votes they got and when we go to raids people with the highest ranks, will be part of the council. How many we put on there, I would suggest about 5(4 apart from matty). I would say that people should be able to rank up in this by how dependable they are to be at raids and how much they help out. Let's say that Jadano is one of the top ranked guys and all of a sudden he isnt coming to raids, the 5 highest in the loot council can discuss whether he should be demoted a rank or two. Its really just circumstantial. If someone were to have made hooge contributions to the guild in some way, same thing, loot council can discuss if that person should get a promotion. Or, we can do guild votes every month or two and decide about 8-10 people for loot council so every has a fair chance to get in on the top. Yet you still have to work to get there. Really the judgement should be placed upon who is most dependable in raids, who is very flexible with getting in on raids, interested in the benefit of the guild and not themselves. I also believe this is a good way to give guildies the initiative to contribute to the guild so they can get up high in the ranks. I hope we come to a decision soon b/c im sick of uneven loot distribution. BTW DKP could be a great thing if someone was willing to take the initiative to account everyone's points which would be pretty hectic and could be easily corrupted. Anyways, GL with the decision matty and i hope i have helped in some way

[hyde713]

This is hyde-sai-, I maybe misunderstand the situation now, but personally I do not see a huge problem that we need a new loot system right away. If we do...sounds like loot council is teh best option if we have to do that...

1st : My opinion on New loot system

I think everyone should get their fair chances to roll on stuff if they are in the raid that night, since they put effort into it that night at least. The thing is...raids like ZA, lots of the bosses are high geared required for players, so that means lower geared guildies won't get to raid usually. What will a loot system do to that? I think it will larger the gap between the top geared faction guildies and the lower geared guildies. So I definately do not recommand the loot system on both 10 men and 25 men raids.

2nd: Main vs Alts
Gruuls, The Eye, at this moment, we don't really have whole 25 good geared guys come online and raid most of the time...and we usually either pug in friends or lower geared guildies to raid with us.....seriously, sometimes we have people not even kara geared....which makes the raids harder. I do see some advantages we have on the system we currently using : We do geared some of our lower geared guilies up fast! look at magic stick....his gears were scaring me the first time I saw him in grull..now he is okay geared and he start showing up a lot more...it does motivate people when they got gears....and the truth is, whoever rolling against them are actually our own alts!!! So if we need to change something.... I do think Main has priority against alts on loots in most of the cases. To be honest, Alt's purpose are to help out the raids if there is a need, if everybody play their alts like their mains....it took away a lot of the spots and loots in the raids.

3rd: Consequence of the new loot system

I completely agree with korkee on the CONs, lots of people tend to leave the guild because they never get to loot stuff because they missed 1-2 times of raid and have disavantage on rolls against others. Plus, the most important thing is....After the new loot system launch.....People will want to go to raids!!! Which is a good thing.....BUT,we gonna raid those 25 men once a week because they reset once a week, and there are always people who don't get to go even they show up.....what do you think they will do? Complaining to matty not bringing them and they don't get their DKP up? last thing, who is gonna be in charge to keep up with the DKP? Its an intense job and People will get so mad if their DKP went wrong. Its just too much trouble. I havn't read the one Udg was posting...this is just my comment towards DKP...

Conclusion:

I ANTI- DKP and I will say we keep what we are doing atm, since we just started doing the 25 men raids....and I do believe we still needs some of the guildies to geared up more , so we won't wipe on some easy stuff over and over again....I think people still needs what they needs atm and a DKP system will slow them down but gives too much priority to hard core guildies to win on loots....its impossible for everyone to be online and raid 5 nights a week...i mean I do...but lots of people have things going on in their lifes which they still wanna progress with the guild but they just can't do it...I can see DoG is moving up just fine with whatever we doing....we are start raiding gruuls like what...2 months ago? and now we are in SSC TK...and start nuking some bosses....all we needs are some more geared wise guildies. 2.4 is coming soon....by that time most of us are gonna geared up to almost T5 levels, which will allows us to raid smoothly and further progress...lots of BT guild I know in Europe...they do not do a loot system anymore....since we all become friends...it really doesn't matter who gets the loot first...who is next....so...why don't we wait and see? But yea...if we must have a loot system...loot council sounds like a better option to me over than DKP.

Since I may not know the problem we facing...This may be a compelte bull shit post.......I didn't revised what I have typed....sorry for bad grammers and my poor english...but hey, here is my 2 cents and take it what you think it worthed.

Hyde-sai-

[Isasuke]

I think Loot council is the best I see both sides though.
Good
Guild Hoppers wont get as much gear because the council will take time in guild into the decision. Also We can tell who recently got gear and who needs irt most for the GUILD. Not for that one person so in the ned lots of things come into play. Attendance, Guild Time, Behavior, Past gear, and many more things up to the council.
Bad
People can put a face to a person if they don't get loot. I hear that a lot but really think about it. the people that are mad about it either aren't trying to improve gear outside of raids or there gonna get gear and leave.

So in the end i think this is the best way we can go I wouldn't mind DKP as it sounds nice ( never had experince) but I've heard that it gets really messy and people get behind and NEVER get loot.

[Byakuyasama]

i recommend salamand's system. we used it in apocalypse, never had any dkp disputes.

although, in the event people start getting up in the 600++'s in dkp, you might want to have a max dkp spent per item for people who have X amount above a set dkp threshold. so that people wont be spending 5x the dkp that other may be spending for 1 item. just a thought

[Dragonsong]

I am in favor of a loot council for many of the reasons given by darkbahamut. I would like to present a potential organization scheme for said option

For 25 Person

I) The council will consist of 10 elected members and the guild leader or a duly appointed representative in the event of the guild leader’s absence. All members of Grunt status or higher are eligible for election to the council.

II) Election of members of Loot Council

A) Elections will be held on the last week of each calendar month. Candidate nominations will be on Sunday of that week. Voting will be through Thursday of that week and the top 10 will be recognized council starting the following Saturday.

B) A council member will be unable to be nominated until a period of 1 calendar month has passed since their last term on the council. This is a twofold precaution, one it behooves council members to act in the best interests of the guild rather than let personal feeling towards someone cloud their judgment (As next month they may be deciding whether or not YOU get Phat loots). Second, it keeps the personalization of why a particular member is passed over to a minimum. If you are getting passed over multiple months in a row with differing sets of council members there may be a serious reason for why this is occurring, please inquire of the guild leader or officers in regards to this situation.

III) Council Functions
A) A simple majority (6) of the loot council MUST be in attendance at the 25 Person in question. If a simple majority cannot be in attendance then the person who was closest to top 10 in that months voting that are in attendance will act in LC capacity for that run. This does not nullify their ability to run again the next month. The process above will be repeated until the minimum is achieved.

B) 2 options for decision making within the council:
1) Simple majority of the council members present in the event of a Tie the guild leaders vote will be the tie breaker.
2) The council will stay in deliberations until consensus is achieved

C) The members of the loot council will use a separate Vent Channel in order to make their decision.

[lazaruss]

I started alot of the posts about the loot systems so I will throw in my 2 cents. The loot systems that have all been put forth are all solid systems. All the basics have been covered. I just want to throw out a few pros and cons about loot systems in general before i let you know what i think.

The first thing that I need to go into being a tank is handing tanks loot first. There are both upsides and downsides to it. Many of the fights that we will soon be starting require some tanks that need to be really heavily geared, we have not run into this yet, but eventually we will. If you give a tank loot first then the tanks will be exceptionally geared, but DPS now plays a much higher factor than it did before. If any system has tank gearing first, which really is optional now, how many tanks do you gear now, one, two, four? where do you stop. On fights that require few tanks the other ones are just wasting spots that could be used for higher DPS. Especially with the many enrage timers now.

The other thing to consider with any loot system is that no matter what happens some people will be happy and some wont be. We just have to hope that this momentary unhappiness doesn't make them leave. People have to understand that the system might work against them, but usually every system will even out in the end.

Any DKP system rewards the people that are there for the raids the most. The people that show up once a week will always be far behind on DKP. The people that always show up will get what they want first almost every time. In loot council it takes into account the work that people are putting into their characters outside the raids and what they actually do in raids. Every system has its ups and downs.

So what do i want to do?

his is pretty much where a system comes into place, not just saying tanks, then healers then dps. That sounds fine and all but 2 of our good healers are also 2 of our really high dps. There are a few different ways to run a loot system. My old 40 man guild used a system like this.

First of all Main tank, or main 2 tanks get first gear. (seems to be the norm)

After that everyones name is on a list by what they are, or class Ex.

Healers
Matty
verlo
latha
etc

Dps
Uruloki
hyde
frist etc

tanks
Laz
rep
gorfin
etc

So what happens when a piece of loot drops on this system? Say its tier 5. The top person on each list gets to roll for it. If you get a piece of gear you drop to the bottom of the list. If you miss a raid you drop a spot on your list. But if you are there on an alt you do not drop a spot on the list since we needed you on the alt. There is one person that keeps track of all of this.


I like the system that my old guild used to use for bwl, aq40 etc.

[The True Telarien]

Guild Points

Here's a unique one that I have heard of before and sounds interesting.

How it works:

Guild Points (GP) are awarded for certain actions... for example:

Raid Related:
Killing a 25 man Raid Boss that is on farm: 2GP
Killing a 10 man Raid Boss (ZA only) that is on farm: 1GP
Attempting a 25 man Raid Boss that is not on farm: 2GP
Attempting a 10 man Raid Boss (ZA only) that is not on farm: 1GP
Killing a 25 man Raid Boss that is not on farm: 5GP
Killing a 10 man Raid Boss (ZA only) that is not on farm: 2GP
Getting new gear from a 10 man PUG: 1GP

Others: (Set per week since most raids are only once a week)
Clearing a Heroic Instance in a Guild Only run: 1GP/Week
Getting new gear from a Heroic in a PUG: 1GP/Week
Getting new gear from Badges: 1GP/Week
Getting new gear from PvP: 1GP/Week
Getting new gear from Exalted Faction Rep: 1GP/Week

Not Gear Related:
Donating 500g to the Guild Bank: 1GP/Week
Donating 2 stacks of Raid Food: 1GP/Week
Donating 20 Pots: 1GP/Week
Donating Epic lvl 70 Crafted Item: 1GP/Week

More can be added as people come up with them and the Guild Leader agrees on a Point Value.

PUG needs to be defined clearly..
For the purpose of getting GP from Gear:
In a 10 Man, 3 or less people from the guild = PUG, in a 5 man, no more than 1 guild member = PUG
For the purpose of getting GP for a Clear:
In a 10 Man, 8 or more people from the Guild = Not a PUG, In a 5 Man, 4 or more people from the Guild = Not a PUG

This system makes you work outside the Raid, makes you work towards furthering the Guild, and still gives emphasis on the endgame 25 mans but not so much as to leave everyone behind. The very dedicated can earn more points per week than the casuals, but the casuals can still earn enough GP to be effective in rolling during the raids they actually manage to attend.

How they are spent! Here's the Tricky part...
There should be a GP cap. 100 is probably good.
GP can be spent to get gear from the Guild Bank at a rate of 2GP/stack of Raid Food and 20GP for an Epic lvl 70 crafted Item

During a Raid, when loot drops, anyone that wants to roll on it puts up an amount of GP (minimum of 10). This amount is added to your roll. After the Roll, EVERYONE who bid GP gets set back. The winner loses ALL the GP wagered, everyone who lost only gets set back Half their GP wager. This adds an element of Luck which tends to keep people raiding

For example.. Telarien has 100 GP Goldenelf has 20GP and Elithius has 8GP. [Robes of Lock PWNage] drop and we all want it. Since we just downed a 25 man boss thats on farm everyone gets 2GP (very important to Eli because now he can roll) Eli wagers 10, Gold wagers 20 and Tel Wagers 50. Here come the rolls

Tel 28 (+50) ----------- 78
Eli 80 (+10) ------------- 90
Gold 71 (+20) ----------- 91

Damn!!! Sucks to be Tel >.< I lose 25 GP (setting me back to 75)
Eli gets set back to 5 (probably would have been better off not rolling but he almost won it!)
Gold.. GRATZ MAN!! (drops all 20GP on it and is left with only the 2 from that boss kill)

Cool thing is with this... they are both out of the rolls for the next piece that drops in the raid so I get a different piece of gear i want if it drops

If everyone Hoards GP then we basically end up at random rolls again so its probably a good idea to add some other things that people can spend GP on. Or add a decay system.. (if you are over 60GP and you dont earn any more GP during that week you lose 5 or 10GP, whatever we want)

To make it easier for people to check up on or keep track of, post the GP listing on the Guild Website. Make it everyone's own responsibility to let the "GP Master/masters" know when they did something to earn GP. Raids are easy cause there will be plenty of witnesses.. Guild Bank donations are easy cause of the Log. Gear is easy cause we can inspect you in game or armory your toon. Clearing a heroic with guildies is easy cause there will be at least 4 witnesses!

**GP is awarded to a PERSON, not a toon! If your alt comes on a raid, you still get GP for when your main comes back in to down the last boss, its like you never left!**

Obviously we can add/modify/change any of the rules as we want. So long as its posted on the site so everyone knows the rules and knows how to get GP. GP can also be used as a punishment.. late for a raid you said you would attend -2GP. Your stupidity wiped the raid (pulling al'ar) -2GP.

It sounds like a lot, but its really simple stuff. The drawbacks though:
--If everyone saves up their GP then the loot basically ends up turning into a random roll for that piece of gear (everyone who rolls gets set back though :-) so it works itself out quick)
--Some people who are really dedicated to farming can accumulate enough GP without attending a single raid to have enough to win whatever they choose to roll on (after that win though their GP goes away LoL so it works itself out after that one drop)
--If you bring an Alt to a raid, while you CAN gear him/her, those GP get taken away from YOU! Your main has less to play with. (although this does make people concentrate on their main more)

******** Another rule would obviously be that the Guild Leader can do whatever he feels is best for the raid. If the tank needs a piece of gear that just dropped, he CAN close the rolls and just give it to the tank. I've heard it used though that the tank would still get set back an amount of points since you would most definitely be rolling on it anyway the only difference being that you have no chance of losing the roll to someone's insane luck**********

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The other half of what Matty asked... systems we do NOT want and why!

The old "Fastest Fingers" system!! Loot gets set to "Free for All" and whoever clicks the fastest to pick it up gets it!!

Whoever came up with that was obviously joking >.< at least i HOPE so!! Can you imagine how badly that would set back a raid!!

Un-fair system
Hinders Raid Progression
Completely Useless!

Well, thats a novel post... on to bigger and better things!! (Maybe I will come back in and edit this to add more stuff later)

** Edited to add this comment **
The more I think about this, it is basically a DKP system where you can get points for more than just stuff in the raid. I dont know much about any DKP mods or anything like that... can a DKP mod be set up to include out-of-raid events?
**End of Edit**

[Jadano]

so basically...here is what i typed on another topic just copied and pasted

Personally I am all for the loot council idea, we had originally talked about it when we first started to raid kara a long time ago, yet we never did anything further with the idea. I also like the idea of taking a vote to see who would be on the loot council as then if people dont like the decisions that the loot council makes, there isnt really much they can say since they had a part in the vote of who would be on the loot council.

Mains before alts
I am all for this idea aslong as(and i know many people have said this, im just restating) you are not required to bring in your alt because we are short a tank/heals. If we are short something for the raid that night, and people are willing to bring in their alt to help out, then they should have an equal roll against anyone else since they had to sit out their main character for the night.

Tanks>heals>dps
I personally do not think this is a good idea at all. And no it has nothing to do with the fact that I am a mage...cause if you think about it, i roll against locks and hunters so it would not apply to me anyway. The reason i do not think this is a good idea is because our tanks/healers are more than geared enough for the ssc/tk content that we are in atm. Currently our dps as a whole sucks. When we have tanks that are higher on the dps charts than someone who is specced for dps, there is a problem. Whether it is because gear of the dps is horrible, or because they do not know their class as well as they should, im not sure, but we need to do something. Since our dps seems to be the problem atm i think that the gear should go to them first before a tank or a healer. When we get to newer content to where it is obvious that we cant down him because our tank/heals are undergeared for him, then i will change my position, but at the current content lvl there is no issue with the gear of our tanks/heals(there may be an issue with tank/healing ability, but that is beside the point ) So until we get to that point in raiding, i think the gear should go to dps.

Another problem i have with the tanks>heals>dps thing is that if we do that, that means that shadow preists will always be last. To me this is just plain stupid. Why they may not always be the best dps, they are probably the greatest support class there is. The mana/health regen ability they have is just fucking amazing. If they are put in a group with tanks, it is constantly giving the tanks hp regen, which makes it easier on the healers as they wouldnt have to heal as much which would allow them to be able to heal longer. If we put them in a healer group, not only does it heal the dmg that group is taking, but it also gives the healers mana back, which allows healers to heal longer, thus keeping the tanks alive longer. And the more dmg the shadow preists do, the more health/mana regen they are bringing back in. So imo they should get gear first over both the tanks and heals.


If we do go to a loot council, which i really hope we eventually do, even though it may take a while to set up, some things i think the council should look at when making a decision are...

1) Outside gearing
We still have way to many people in the guild that are not taking advantage of all the gear that is available outside a raid. Yes i understand that people have lives outside of WoW. But, imo if you have time to raid, you have time to spend on getting gear. Even if you only spend a little time each day, or hell even every other day, doing heroics, BGs, within a week or so you can get a new shiny piece of gear! I do not think it would be fair to give an awesome raid piece to someone who does nothing at all to improve their gear outside of a raid, and just shows up in crappy gear that can be easily replaced. Hell there is even some better shit on the AH than what i have seen some people in.

2) Showing up
I also think props should go to the people that are constantly available to be there for a raid. Again, i understand, there is a life outside wow. If you say something to someone saying that you arent going to be available that night for a raid, im perfectly ok with that, cause you let us know ahead of time, and we wont be expecting you. It really sucks when you are expecting someone to show, and they dont, and we have to take in a PuG, which honestly hurts the guild as a most if a PuG ends up with gear, cause that does nothing at all to help our progression. I know somethings come up sometimes, and you just cant log on or let anyone know, but we constantly have people just not showing up on certain raid nights.

3) Attitude
Personally i think showing up to a raid with a good attitude is really helpful. Some people just show up, and if we wipe a few times on new content, they are just ready to go. People need to realize that this is NEW content, which means about 90% of us have had no experiences with these bosses, which means you should come to the raid expecting to wipe, maybe a lot, and you need to be ready to pay repair bills. If your expecting the raid to go 100% smooth everytime...you need to get over it, cause for the most part its not going to happen.

4)Outside preperation
This means getting potions, elixirs, flasks, buff foods, enchanting oils. Every little bit helps. Most of this stuff is very easy to get, and helps out a ton. Even if you just buy just get one of the list, every bit helps. Also included in outside preperation is knowing the fight ahead of time, no what your class is susposed to do, where you are susposed to go when the boss does one certain move. We spend about 5-10 mins downtime before we start a boss so matty can explain the fight. If people take the time to go to youtube and watch a vid, or to a boss guide website it would save us time, and give us more chances at that boss before the trash respawns; or if can kill him fast enough, it would give us more time to maybe move farther that night before people have to log. We normally talk about what bosses we are going to attempt in which raid, so people have plenty of time to read up on that boss. I personally find time to read up on bosses when i am afking on lath in a BG


Personally I am not a big fan of DKP atm. Seeing as how we have people that dont show up for every raid, we are constantly bringing in different people. Which means that the people that only come in every now and then would most likely NEVER get to roll on an item that drops, which is why i think the loot council would be the best idea. If we get to a point to where it is the same 25 people for pretty much every raid then i think DKP would be able to work better. Also if we move to a DKP, i saw some posts stating about DKP points awarded for 10 man raid bosses. If we do this the 10 man and the 25 man DKP points should be kept seperate cause it would not be fair for the people doing the 10 mans to just rack up on the DKP while others are only getting their DKP from the 25 man raids. If we get to the point to where we are doing 2-3 10 mans every reset then they can be added to the 25 man DKP because there will be more people doing the 10 man raids.

[Necropulan]

before I start typing my opinion, I would first like to say....nice use of 'behoove" jessa, I don't get to see that word very often.

I have read through the majority of what people have been saying, which has been a lot, Assigning some kind of point system like guild points, or DKP does not particularly rub my fancy for the cons that were posted earlier and the fact that there is more human error that can occur by having one person doing the calculations, and what if this one person cannot show up to the raid? And even having more than one person adding up everyone's points, I'm not sure how many people would really want to continue it a month or two after raiding, after replacing people, and new recruits needing new action in raids etc. (btw I am only adding new things, I am not going to bother restating what other ppl have said).

The loot system I am in favor of (if there is a change needed, I don't mind the system we have currently) would be a loot council. Reasons not mentioned, or reasons I did not read, or I am just restating a reason mentioned but thinking its a new reason in my head (back to point), is that if we have trusted reliable raiders who have been to the raids before hand would know or have an idea of the 'guild points/dkp' of everyone. Another would be there is a representation of all the classes, for instance if necro wants the pretty pink shoes that just dropped and Jad wants those same pretty pink shoes and the loot leaders notice that there are a pair pretty blue shoes that would go well w/ necro's pretty blue shirt then it could be pointed out to necro he might want to wait for the pretty blue shoes. (if that weird metaphor was not understood, pink shoes = awesome spl dmg gear, blue shoes = spl damage gear w/ spirit that would benefit a priest more, and still be an upgrade for both of them)

Also, if the members of the loot council change every month or so as mentioned earlier, and there are votes, it brings a sense of importance to the people on the council and would help bond the guild together, and let everyone know that everyone in the guild does have a say in whats going on. Also that some (key word "some") of the the loot council could be a new member of the guild that seems reliable so far on the raid runs, to help initiate them into the guild, but thats just a thought to throw up into the air, but I should be stopping this post, b/c I have class in 10 min, and still need to print out a project