bitch post

[The True Telarien]

Any chance we can get Matty to grace us with a post? I think there are lots of good ideas in here and I definitely like being able to come to the site and see people posting :-D Any change though obviously needs the blessings of the Guild Leader...

I'm sure he must have heard by now about this thread. If you're out there Matty, what are your ideas/opinions on this?

[Rakusimoo- A.K.A. TRAVIS]

Laz's post seems good and all but it only works for the groups that consisntently have the same exact guys raiding every week....which is pretty much how it has been with ZA...kinda "Clicky".....what happens to that guy that fills in one night? starts at the bottom of the list??....each time???

[lazaruss]

he is on the bottom of the list when he first comes, and if they don't give due notice that they wont be there then they will drop on the list. Why should the guys that show up only occasionally be getting gear just as fast as the ones that are there every night.

edit to calrify

once the list is made it doesn't reset, its for all the 25 man raids.

[slay13]

Hello guys,

I'd like to say that..

*No im not ignoring the thread tel, just as you can see I write really lengthy posts..and I don't always have 2 hours when I'm home during the week to write down long graphic novel sized posts.

*I have no problem going to a different loot system, but i'm not going to sort it out, you guys need to.

My major issues/thoughts on this topic are...
----------------------------------------------
1)DKP/Honor based loot system drawbacks

You can't DKP/ have pre sorted loots, and expect to get PuGs to come in for raids for the most part and not get drops. This is a problem that we currently are facing at the moment. Realistically, as a 25 man raid guild we are still very young, and have only been running the 25 man raids as a solo guild for about 6 weeks or so now. With that being said, attendance has been sketchy, and we have been forced to either 22/23/24 man content that is meant for 25 mans for better or worse, or to take PuGs to fill in the #'s. From my experience, PuGs don't come without open rolls unless they are already "friends" of someone and will come with the chance of no drops. Generally, even with this, with no carrot at the end of the stick, guys tend to flake out and leave I feel if there is nothing in the instance FOR them anymore.

This is also why we have to take undergeared people, like dio, in the first place. Also though, if not FOR those individuals that still show up, pay repair bills, and help us fill out the raid...the spot would have either been empty, or filled by another PuG that would have also increased the chances of more drops going to non guildies. In my mind...any drop goin to a nonguildy is worse than a drop goin to an undergeared guildy regardless who it is or what class.

-----------------------------------------------
2) Guys gotta live with the fact that the system that they set up will also work against them

DKP or some other merit based system is the only feasable way to accomplish this and still have a clearly defined "back door" for which newer raiders have potential to climb in raid ranks/ect and progress to get higher drops. As such, with any MERIT based system, this will both work for AND against you occasionally. Yes this will guarantee that the guys that come every night will get mostly what they want first, but this will also
work against guys not able to come to every raid due to scheduling/having a life or what not, and pretty much always keep them a step down on the loot rung. Each time a dkp/merit based system has been brought up in the past, the guys are gung ho about it as long as it would be in their favor, but come a time when a raid night changes, or they have a change in work scheduling ect...then they are adamantly against it as I have heard from many guys time and again "well there is no point in me raiding then EVER if i cant raid in so and so raid that i NEED and have to work that day."
----------------------------------------

3) Tank> Healer> dps , really can suck depending on what side of the fence your sitting on...

Also, just to point out, shadow priests will get nearly no loot for months in a new raid with a system that is set up to say tanks>healers>dps. As a shadow priest...you are rolling for warrior/priest/druid tokens. So any Prot warrior would win over you, and all ferals...AND all holy priests..AND all resto druids. I really don't see any initiative for guys such as frith in any system like this. This isnt that way for everyone...but i'm just sayin...for someone who a DPS class is their only character, and their main, having to sit behind a potentially never ending line of people really doesn't give you much incentive for doing certain raids.

------------------------------
4) our lowly undergeared tanks, they are the reason we cannot progress further!!! =P

**Also, though going against the general concensus of most of the posters in this thread, our tanks currently are our most "geared" guys in the guild by large, and we rarely have any problems having tanks available for raids ect. This thread is made in the "not bitching" "guild progression" vein initially, but I'm sorry if I don't at all see that currently in our guild progression, that our tanks or their gear/lack of 1 drop is holding us back.

If it ever got to the point where our tanks couldnt tank the content we're trying to run, then of course, I would feel like there would be a need for this, but as it stands, our tanks ARE currently by large the first guys to get geared out in almost every circumstance.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
5) Our DPS is amazing, it has no need for drops, give em to the tanks!!


Korkee is also right....as a guild, DPS is our downfall at the moment. Our DPS sucks. Its Low most the time...some guys are REALLY low on DPS and either don't care, or dont see the need to find out how to improve their dps, and generally its DPS slots that we are short of to continue raiding 25 man content. Yon you're one of the best geared guys in the guild, for tanking & for dps. You are well enough geared to easily tank anything in t4/t5 content given what you are wearing currently, and thats exactly why I havent seen the need to pull rank and just give drops to guys when there is no clearly defined loot system in place.

----------------------
6) Open roll system, its done us no good so far, we have no loots!! o.O


This is also something that I have also held myself to personally as a raider. Most of my gear I have worked for and gotten via non raid outlets pvp/badges/heroics ect...every drop that I have won with the exception of my current healing necklace...I have been beaten on rolls many many MANY times (i think i lost the healing cape off of prince over 6 times before finally getting it). So I don't feel that I have asked anyone to go through anything loot wise in raiding that I havent had happen to me many times also. No i'm not trying to be preachy, i'm just saying.

--------------------------------
7) ZA

Also , in regards to ZA, yea its clickish, and to tell you the truth I really don't care. The guys getting first dibs in ZA are the guys that busted their ass' wiping for 2 months on jan'alai to be able to open up the later fights now, and it would be retarded, when we've only killed zul jin about 6-8 times I believe, to not let these guys get the drops they need from the last 2 boss' before moving in other guys. I've tried and are currently trying to get 2 groups going, but seriously, some of the guys that currently are feeling left out in the cold about this are the guys that are are on way more sporatically for the most part than the guys that currently are in there now. I have 4 particular guildies that come to mind that have been crying for ZA for weeks...and then havent bothered to log in the nights that we've been planning on running a 2nd run, and have been told about us trying to run on those nights. So it's apparent to me that its not enough for some guys to get INTO ZA...if they arent guaranteed a full clear, as they arent showing up on nights for a 2nd group that very well COULD be clearing given a little more time/practice.

----------------------------

8) other possible ideas, thoughts on lewt systems, raid spots, honor system ect...

I feel that any DKP, raid lewt system should both encourage people to work on gear outside of raids, as well as be a detriment to those that do not. I think it sucks that guys that make/farm/work for GOOD gear get told "your going to roll on THAT over your crafted thing?!?!" when they have taken no drops for that slot....ever.

I think that if people were able to progress through the drop setup by working OUTSIDE of raids would be a great idea, and also get more guildies doing things together. Right now theres little encouragement for guys to gear themselves out..even though its been staring them in the faces since the 2.1 patch and the introduction of S2 Glad gear ect.

***THERE IS BETTER LOOT OUT OF RAID THEN IN RAIDS AT THE MOMENT TILL THE XPAC!!!!!! & Guys that don't take advantage of this are R-TARDED!!!!!!****

I think that if we do go to a DKP ranking type system..that we should give points to guys that get new drops outside of raids, and not just waiting to get them in raids...as this only helps guild progression faster when we dont have as many guys fighting over drops that are easily replaceable with current pvp/badge gear ect. IE..if we look a characters gear..and after 3 weeks they havent done ANY work out of raids when there is easily available gear for them to help themselves and the raid...then they should be docked points..and guys that DO get better gear should get to see the benifits of doing so also in raid.

--------------

9) Alts not getting gear
[b]

I don't disagree that alts shouldnt get gear before "mains" ect...but to do this guys need to decide both WHO their "main" would be, and what spec they would get priority on with that character. As someones main may change from time to time as they don't spend time on their first character very much at that point.

Also yes I agree that guys that either respec/play on class' taht they would rather not play on but do it for the sake of the raid (ie tank/healers ect) should also get to roll or get a fair shake as otherwise they are more or less blocking their MAIN alt by even rolling a healer to 70 ect..and thus guarantee'ing that they don't get to play on their dps'er ever as they are needed on heals as is often the case with Ug/Redneckloger ect...and yes I do understand that is the case for you guys, and I am very appreciative of you guys doing this as we wouldnt be able to raid without either of you at the moment.

------------------------------

Thats about all that I can think of to post at the moment, if anyone has any other suggestions or questions about this then please let me know and I will post my thoughts on them.

[The True Telarien]

@matty - I apologize if it sounded like I was accusing you of ignoring the thread, I was just trying to say I was interested in what your thoughts and opinions were. (not being online the same time as everyone else makes me feel left out and the forums are the only place I can keep up with the guild happenings day to day)

I dont have any experience with raiding this far or in a guild this big so loot systems are something I have never really dealt with. I think my Military time has trained *brainwashed* me to always gravitate towards a well defined structure LoL that why I personally took such an interest in this thread, and raiding in general. I like to know what the rules are :-)

This is going to be a really general and generic statement here but I really think that no matter what the raid does for loot (DKP, open rolls, or any other system) is going to have its benefits to some people and its drawbacks to others. Anything we do is going to work for us.

I like Tank>heals>dps because like matty was saying our tanks are geared already, our healers are pretty much good-to-go so that puts dps-ers like me next in line :-)

I like DKP because I can attend most weekend raids and I know ahead of time if i wont be able to make it. I'll alway be able to know where I am on the list and what to do about it to get my name higher

I like the open roll system because it means EVERY raid I will get to roll on stuff (even if i dont win, being able to roll makes me feel better )

I can argue for or against any system we put in place. When it all comes down to it though, the only things I have an actual preference for are that the guild get the loot instead of a pugger, and that a toon that contributes to the raid gets the gear.

What Matty said about getting gear outside of the raids... I'm glad you brought that up. I was pretty much focusing on on raid content and not even thinking about the other ways to gear up... There is a lot of VERY good gear outside of raids! Badge gear is really nice and is usually easier to get than raid gear. Heroics have a lot of good drops in them that can make the difference between an guildie that is carried to a raid, and a guildie that contributes to the raid... All in all, so long as we keep raiding and the GUILD gets more gear - I'm happy with that.

I pray every second of every raid in the eye that the pattern for belt of blasting drops and I can get it! I would take that pattern over my T5 any day! I got my belt made already and if i get the pattern to make others, i will farm mats continuously to make them and put them in the guildbank! Belt of Blasting for everyone!! LoL (I would have to worry about getting those pesky nether vortexes though...)