bitch post

[Yongary/Dilemmachine]

so. alts. we all have 'em. we all want all the gear for them too. we all fight, whine, and cry that we can't always bring them to the raids to get the gear. thing is, doesn't really help us when we can't get the guys on mains geared up enough to get into deeper shit. sure, we're moving along now, and we could do without a couple of the main guys to get through stuff, but the alts are taking away too much stuff from the main dudes, imo. pretty much a brick wall argument there...moving on.

we need a loot system. in my mind, there's no reason that non-necessary alts should be getting stuff ahead of the rest of the core raiders. need to do something to fix that. also, in order to get into tougher raids, we need tougher tanks. we have a good bunch now, but some of them don't have quite enough to be main tanking, when they could have been, if not for non-core raiders collecting loot. the way i see it, the more difficult content hits harder, and we hit hard enough and heal good enough already. in order to make this easier, shouldn't we balance this out by toughening up our tanks? no, i'm not QQ'n about myself (blast you pants!!), as i do not tank all that often.

after our tanks are geared up, dps and heals can have the luxury of getting that all important +7-8 dmg/heals/atp/whatever upgrade, which isn't as big of a factor as having a tank, healer, or dps survive for 10 more seconds because of a hit rating, stam, or agility bonus from an upgrade to the tank's gear. because, as we all know, 10 extra seconds can save or end a boss encounter. remember void reaver fight last week? so, personally, i believe tanks should get priority. i'm an off tank, so i shouldn't get priority. but you can still gimme all your loots.

ok i'm done whining. take this however you like. i don't care. starting to get apathetic about this bs.

[The True Telarien]

I definitely agree that we need to gear up the mains before alts are even considered. I would even put an off-set on a main before an alt to be completely honest. The time it takes for a main to switch out his/her gear is a lot less than the time it takes to leave the instance, summon an alt, run back, do the fight, then go back out and bring the main back in...

I don't know if it is possible though to pick a raid role (tanks for example) to gear up first since we cant pick what gear drops. If tank gear drops, give it to a main tank first. If the main tank doesn't need it, let the OTs roll, if the OT's don't need it, then let people who can use it for an off-set roll. Same breakdown for Heal gear.

DPS gear it might be good to look at the raid and see who gets the biggest upgrade and give it to that person... If i get an extra 2-3 DPS off of a piece of gear, but someone else will get a 20-30 dps boost then the raid as a whole will advance faster giving it to that person!

Of course with that type of system, we need a way to clearly identify our raiders and their roles in the raid.

A side note on people's specs... it might be worth looking into people's specs on their raiders to make sure we are getting the most out of our raid. (using myself as an example) I can tune myself to do as much damage as possible to raise my name on the damage charts by moving the 5 points in Malediction somewhere else. In that way I help only myself. By putting the 5 points there, my name drops in the charts, and the damage output of the other locks/spriests goes up. I take a small hit to boost the damage of 3 or more raiders... yeah its worth it to the raid.

[lazaruss]

I really have nothing to add to what yon wrote. After tanks it helps if healers are getting geared up. It has been shown that its the fastest way to progress. Tanks > Healers > dps. Even if it doesnt work that way a loot system of some sort is needed. Random rolls work fine for a 10 man raid, but with 25 people it can be many months before some people get a piece of gear.

[Rakusimoo- A.K.A. TRAVIS]

YES!!! I am glad that Yon said it because I have been thinking that for some time now. Just wasn't my place to bring it up except for now....becuase its a discussion posted by an officer. In the past we have always used the "seniority system" in raids to determine who gets what drops. It goes without question that everyone wants the drops for their class. However, in certain cases there has to be some kind of priority on the drops.

For example) take Yongary for instance.......He, along with Rep, Laz, and our new addition to the guild Gorfin are the top tanks in the guild. However Yon is still wearing his "Clefthoof pants", which you can get at like lvl 67. Now this may or may not be common knowledge to everyone, but it certainly is amongst druids. The only viable upgrade for a tanking druid from their clefthoof set is "t4" items. Whereas the t4 token applies to warrior/priest/druids, both warrior and priests have other options of upgrading their gear. I do agree that a warrior tank has a harder time to get gear as well as Pally tanks. But the bottom line is that it's our "ONLY UPGRADE!!" until we hit t6. Can we really imagin him in Black temple with the "clefthoof set" on. . It just sounds funny to me.

Furthermore I also like what Telarien was talking about becasue I have seen that problem come up as well. I think that if the toon is your main then you should get priority on the drops over an alt, regardless if they have seniority over you or not. If an alt gets gear before a main how do we progress as a guild honestly. Might as well disban and go to a 10 man guild since the top players get the loots automatically. Now It is important for the players to have the alts so that we can mix and match the toons for certain fights.

It seems to me that if we keep the mentality that we currently have the guild will become divided. Meaning the top raiders (who are pretty much all the officers) and then everyone else. As the top raiders progress in the game then the other members should be picking up right where they left off.

It might be a good idea to post certain drops that are huge for your class so that we all understand and pass on that drop. Just a thought though. What do you guys think?

[Crazy.Insane]

Without a doubt tanks should get gear over anyone. I also agree with mains getting gear over alts. I think healers should be second in line as after tanks. Once the tanks get their gear, healers should be getting it then dps. Problem is people aren’t going to want to go to the 25 mans if they know they won't be getting a chance to roll on their tier gear. Time for me to QQ...I would really like my t5 shoulders and I think I should have got them over Brd, honestly (I had the 2nd highest roll). I am one of the top 3 healers and Verlo is my main. Nothing against you Red but I heal a lot, whenever, whatever and am often always available for raiding. Not saying you aren’t, but again Verlo is my main.

The best possible solution I would suggest is that we give the tier drops to tanks as a priority. When the tanks get their gear, healers should have priority. When that's all said and done, the dps can go at it. I mean, it wouldn't take that long in perspective to do this. The thing is we just need people to show up for it. We all need to be on the same page and have a common goal. I know it’s hard when you look on atlas loot at the sicko tier gear you COULD have and then look at what you are wearing... but honestly the best way to progress and continue to start doing new content is to prioritize

[Darkbahamut]

I also believe that mains should get the priority first. I'm not QQ'n about loots being taken from me by an alt *cough* dilemmachine *cough* alivissice *cough*(sorry got a cold), but i think it to be unfair to people that dont have as much time as others to make 2-3 alts at 70. Im trying to work on some but i really want to get my mage geared so i can have a more crucial part in dps. Right now i'm just an alternate for certain raids, but Hopefully soon enough I'll be able to compete with the big dogs of dps like korkee and jad once i get a faster computer. If i can be at top dps w/ arc frost i think i would be able to excel as a fire mage. I'm tryin to make myself accessible enough to go to the raids but it's been tough juggling work and school but im still tryin. In the near future though i should be a pretty dependable dps. BTW if anyone wants help w/ shit such as helping an alt or doin heroics or whatever, just let me know b/c i am always happy to help!
-Darkbahamut

[The True Telarien]

Well, it looks like we are all on the same page when it comes to the major points:

1. Mains come before Alts
2. Tanks come First
3. Heals come Second
4. DPS comes Third

We all know that it takes time to get gear. That time is getting ramped up in a couple weeks so it wont be AS bad. I'll use T5 shoulders as my example in this:

Void Reaver drops 2 Tokens when we kill him. Its a 25 Man Raid. That means 13 weeks and the entire raid gets a piece of T5! In a couple weeks, they are adding another token so thats 3 per week which cuts us down to 9 weeks for everyone to get the T5 piece!

Add onto that the fact that after the first two weeks our tanks will be better equipped to do more bosses. That opens up even more gear. All the while miscellaneous gear is dropping that someone can use as an upgrade. Add a few random trash epics.. when it all comes down to it we will be getting enough loot to drop for EVERYONE to get a piece of gear roughly 1 out of 3 runs!! Thats not bad at all and thats just TK!! Throw some SSC in there, still doing Gruuls, maybe Mag.. The gear will come. Just be patient. I would like to add though that it might be smart to add a "1 drop per run" limit (with tanks being the exception for essential gear) A little bit of common sense goes a long way. Guild Progression opens up more gear faster. Now lets go kill some stuff!! Rawr!

[Ugdhar]

I don't disagree, I wouldn't mind if tanks and healers got first dibs on stuff before dps, and then alts....

HOWEVER. . .in a situation where someone's alt is required to come, for instance, someone with a healer alt comes in to heal because we need healers, I feel that character should get a fair roll on stuff regardless of alt status, since that person's main has to miss out.

Besides that, bring on the drops for tanks and healers first, then main char dps, then alts.

[Elithius]

My two cents on this matter.


Look I totally agree with the fact something needs to change. But at the same time, we have to look at the best way of doing so.

I mean seriously, I, like yon have cleared gruuls more times then most only to watch my t4 pants/shoulders run away to someone else who was much less of a consistent raider.(Got my shoulders last week!) Nothing against Dio either, but damn, an upgrade like a t5 going to him isn't the best thing for the consistency either. Any healer or Tank should have gotten this before him I believe.

He has to go to someones house to play I believe?!

Look I am not saying DKP is the answer either, but something needs to benefit the people who are ALWAYS raiding. Some of us raid 3+ nights a week, and have been sitting back letting the new people get the gear we still need

Laz, Rep, Yon, Kaezon, Lath, Verlo, Matty......etc WHY AREN'T these people getting the gear first?! These are the people keeping us alive!

Something needs to be implemented like we had discussed awhile back where, we have an elected group of people who decided where the gear goes. Whether or not thats DKP or loot council, or hell I don't care if its Matty telling where the gear goes.

[redneckloger]

like ug said in my situation i have to take my healer to everything bow because we need him more than my hunter.. sucks for me cuz i like my hunter way more but its helps the guild out and i am ok with that. but he should have fair roll as he is the main char i play now... and sorry if i pissed anyone off my getting the t5 shoulders. but it was a huge upgrade from the primal mooncloth

[The True Telarien]

Hmm.. the fact that some people HAVE to bring alts to the raid because of what classes we need does put a spin on things... It still leaves us with a problem though.

If your alt (a healer for example) gets geared up and then at a later point we get another healer so you can take your Main, the Raid as a whole loses all the benefit of the gear that went to your alt and we have to re-gear the new healer.

Maybe we should be more specific with the term "Main" and make this something more along the lines of your "Main Raid Toon" It looks like this guild will not grow much bigger than it is already (except for people adding in more of their alts) so our "Core Raid Group" will most likely be made up of the same 25-30 people playing the same "Main Raid Toon" every week in the name of Guild Progression.

If we ever got enough people to get 2 Gruuls runs going for example, then that is the place to gear up your alts. I still feel that giving gear to someone (regardless of class) who is not going to be consistently raiding with us is unfair to those that bring the same character to the raid all the time.

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*V*V*V*V*V* Playing Devil's Advocate here *V*V*V*V*V*

I'm a DPS and I am fine with waiting till after the tanks and heals get geared to get my chance. I have a problem though if one person has 2 alts that happen to be a tank and a healer and they step in to fill a spot for someone for one week and get a drop!! Why should someone's Tank alt get a drop when that alt is only going to come to raids once in a while. Subbing in an alt is only slightly *very slightly* better than getting a random PUG from the trade channel. Now if that alt was going to be the toon you raid with 90% of the time then that is perfectly ok because that toon would effectively be your "Main Raid Toon"

[Korkee]

Who's my main? Kaezon or Korkee?
I top dps with Korkee in almost every situation.
I know my role as healer on Kaezon and I'm good at it, but I never top heal meters because i stack mana regen instead of all +heals so I can be in the group without the Spriest or getting an innervate.
Both characters are beneficial to have in a raid, I dropped Souldead from the rotation so we could get the other rogues dpsing like mad because i realized i wasn't likely to catch Korkees deeps (Take one for the team).

Soooooo.... In short who's my main?

PS. If we gear up the tanks over the dps it's cool with me cuz our tanks have issues in general imo. But I never wanna hear OMG WHERE'S THE DPS?!?!

[Necropulan]

No matter what we do we are still going to face issues w/ changing the loot system. I am fine with things the way they are now, and I am fine if we change to the tank>healers>dps w/ the alt factor thrown in there, but someone who might be in my situation might not show up to raids because it will be a while to get the Tier items. I'm not QQ'n, just saying this could be a factor because as a dps priest I would have to wait through 2 warrior tank, 2 druid tanks, and 2 priest healers (all kind of averaged I guess). Or it could cause a change in spec, for instance someone like me could advance faster as a healer than as dps. But either way A happy raid team = A successful raid team, so if the majority want a change then there should probably be a change, and make sure that all factors are accounted for.

[Necropulan]

oh and in my above post I am not saying that I am fine with alts receiving loot before mains

[lazaruss]

This is pretty much where a system comes into place, not just saying tanks, then healers then dps. That sounds fine and all but 2 of our good healers are also 2 of our really high dps. There are a few different ways to run a loot system. My old 40 man guild used a system like this.

First of all Main tank, or main 2 tanks get first gear. (seems to be the norm)

After that everyones name is on a list by what they are, or class Ex.

Healers
Matty
verlo
latha
etc

Dps
Uruloki
hyde
frist etc

tanks
Laz
rep
gorfin
etc

So what happens when a piece of loot drops on this system? Say its tier 5. The top person on each list gets to roll for it. If you get a piece of gear you drop to the bottom of the list. If you miss a raid you drop a spot on your list. But if you are there on an alt you do not drop a spot on the list since we needed you on the alt. There is one person that keeps track of all of this.

The biggest sticking point on it is how many tanks do you gear, and which ones. since most fights only require 2 tanks. Thats an officer thing to decide on the loot system, either way it requires a restructuring on the way that loot is done. It also enables recruiting, since you dont go on the list until you have gone through a full raid and then you start at the bottom.

I'm not saying that this is what we should do but it is an example of a loot system that is not DKP that works for large raid